Back in America

Coco Kee: are reminiscent to China's
Cultural Revolution in the 60s and 70s.

Trump is going to be the first
president pro crypto since 2009

when Bitcoin came into being.

I started from scratch.

A telemarketer, I just down my ego.

I pick up the phone and called
and people yelled at me.

It was very scary but my
skin got thicker and thicker.

So I keep calling.

That was excellent training.

Stan Berteloot: Today on the show
We are thrilled to welcome Coco Kee,

a global citizen with a fascinating
journey from Peking University to

UC Berkeley, where she co founded
a startup during the.com boom.

Now a leading figure in
blockchain and cryptocurrency.

Coco is the co-founder of Key Global
Advisor, author of the blockchain Asia

Blog, and host of Blockchain Asia Podcast.

Together we are going to
explore the 2024 election.

The Chinese American vote
and their surprising ripple

effect on cryptocurrency.

Welcome to Back in America, Coco.

Coco Kee: Thank you for the invitation,
I look forward to our discussion.

Stan Berteloot: So let's start.

How did you make it from studying
English literature and American theater

at Peking university to becoming a
prominent figure in cryptocurrency?

Walk me through the process here.

Silence.

Coco Kee: professors to teach me about
high tech, to teach me entrepreneurship,

and Also, I studied macroeconomics
with Janet Yellen, and this experience

opened my eyes to what came after that.

When I was in New York after school, I
worked in fintech companies for five years

until I started my own company, KGA, or
Key Global Advisors, during that time I

was very interested in all kinds of new
things, and New York was a perfect place

to pick up new ideas and innovations.

So I went to meet up in New York,
and one time I came across Bitcoin

blockchain, which was totally new
to me, but I was very curious.

So after I Learned about bitcoin
and blockchain I fell down the

rabbit hole and I really loved it.

So I decided to drop, everything
else, whatever I was doing at that

time, including investment banking,
to just focus on this industry.

Since 2016, I've been doing this.

I learn about new things every
day and that's my passion.

Stan Berteloot: you still interested
in English literature and theater?

Coco Kee: I am still very interested.

In the beginning, I thought it
was just something, useless.

However, I realized after so many
years later that literature, English,

American theater, really make my
life more interesting and also allow

me to make friends much easier.

In the U.

S.

I would talk about, some movies,
some books with American friends

and really make our conversation
much easier and more fun.

So that is something, I never
thought that was the benefit.

And secondly, actually the
literature and theater really

helped me think out of the box.

And you can be creative.

Even in technology, innovation,
even in startup, even in investment.

Creativity is something that always need.

I still love books, movies, and theater.

I do that all the time.

, when you work with
startup founders, one key.

element is to understand people, to
communicate with people, and to figure

out what kind of founders they are.

And the, literature, theater, help me
connect with people much, much easier.

My instinct plays a big role
throughout my business activities

and interaction with those founders.

Stan Berteloot: How old were
you when you came to the US?

Coco Kee: I was past 30, secret
though, I can't tell you too

much, but I already past 30 when
I came to us, so I was considered.

Old in my class most of my classmates
were in their mid twenties.

Stan Berteloot: How was it leaving
China, leaving your home country,

moving to the US at that age?

Coco Kee: Actually, I did not
think too much about it when I

made my decision to come to the U.

S.

For a business degree.

The only motivation I could recall
was to improve my knowledge of

business because I was in business.

After I graduate from Peking University,
although my major was literature and

theater, I did not get a chance to use
my literature and theater knowledge much.

I was in business most of the time,
so I felt that there was some gap.

Between my business practice
and my knowledge and training.

So I say, it's my, it's,
I should go to the U.

S.

and to learn about business so I
will understand the conversation of

those companies CEO much better.

And another thing is two of my American
supervisors in China, they were, They

are all Americans, one from Princeton,
actually, the other from Michigan.

So they always encouraged me to
pursue a business degree in the U.

S.

They said, Coco, you should do it.

And I said, okay, let me give it a try.

So here I am.

Stan Berteloot: You now live in Princeton.

Coco Kee: Yes,

Stan Berteloot: When did you
decide that it was not going to be

just study, but you were actually
going to stay and live in the U.

S.

Coco Kee: when I graduated Two, it
was a very difficult time because

the high tech bubble burst and
the economy was in recession.

I didn't have any job offer at all.

I really faced the challenge of,
staying in this country because as an

international student, you had this OPT
visa, that's only just a very short

period of time, maximum 9 to 1 year,
but no job offer, nobody sponsor you,

that means you had to Leave the country.

I still wanted to stay in this
country because I wanted to

learn more about this country.

To see how things are operated, and
how people in this country, live.

What kind of life they live, and
how they think, how they do things.

These are all the things
I was very curious about.

So I decided, no matter how difficult,
I still had a window of at least

nine months to give it a try.

I decided to live the most
out of at least nine months and

experience as much as I could.

Stan Berteloot: What was your first job?

Coco Kee: At New York City Opera.

Because I couldn't land any job and
in order to make a living and also

to have some experience in the U.

S., I knock at doors.

Every door that I came across and whatever
would agree to sit down and talk to me.

And New York City Opera uh, telemarketer
under their marketing department, very,

you know, was very kind to say, It's okay.

Just come and give it a try when
you were looking for the next job.

So I gave it a try.

It was very hard to be a telemarketer,
but I learned so much not everything has

its skill set, very special skill set.

It trained me not to worry
too much about my ego.

I just put down my ego.

Yes I was an MBA grad.

I came from China.

I work as chief representative
of an American company,

was very successful before.

But I just forgot about all.

My history, my past.

And I started from scratch.

I pick up the phone and called
and people yelled at me.

It was very scary in the beginning.

But my skin got thicker and thicker.

So I keep calling.

That was excellent training.

Stan Berteloot: Do you
have family in the U.

S.?

Coco Kee: No, I do not

Stan Berteloot: you really came on your

Coco Kee: I have one friend in
New York who is a sister of my

boss, one of my bosses in China.

So she allowed me to stay in her place for
a couple of months to settle in New York.

She always encouraged me and showed
me the best part of the city.

She took me to museums, to theaters,
and I fell in love with the city.

And I said, this is the
place I want to stay.

Stan Berteloot: Okay.

I've got a question about
Chinese and American name.

I know that a lot of Chinese
people to make it easier in the U.

S.

Change their Chinese
name to American name.

Is it something you've done?

Coco Kee: I have a Chinese, an
English, I would call that nickname.

I still keep my Chinese
name on my passport.

My Chinese name is very difficult
for an American to pronounce.

It's Ying Hong Ki or Ke Ying Hong.

So a lot of Americans refuse to call
me when they saw my Chinese name.

So I use my English nickname, Coco,
and that name really gets stuck.

They love it and remember me forever.

So I stick to Coco

Stan Berteloot: How did that come

Coco Kee: personal.

I

Stan Berteloot: How did
it come across come about?

Coco Kee: Came, yes.

So when I was in China, one of my alumni
from Peking University, gave this to me

because he said I was a little bit nuts.

So he said Coco nuts, you're nuts.

So Coco fits you very well.

So that's where it came from.

I like it.

People gave me different names,
Elizabeth and other names,

but none of them survived.

Coco

Stan Berteloot: Okay.

Coco Kee: Stays with me till now.

Stan Berteloot: Coco, let's talk
about the American election.

Were you surprised to hear that
Trump was going to be reelected?

Coco Kee: Not at all.

And I was shocked to see so many people
were shocked that Trump was elected.

I also was not surprised at all in 2016.

You know what my secret is?

I talk to people constantly.

I feel very comfortable talking to
strangers in the street, in the bar,

taxi drivers, or anybody I bump into.

And I ask them who are
you going to vote for?

And because those strangers,
they don't feel uncomfortable.

To share their thoughts because they know
I would not, tell the secret to other

people or their families or their spouses.

So they are very open to me.

They told me their frustration,
why they wanted to vote for Trump.

And so when I read the social media,
I was shocked to read the reports.

The, optimism of the Democratic Party
and all the polls, I just feel that 2024

Could be déjà vu of 2016

I was shocked to see so
many people were surprised.

That Trump was reelected this time.

Stan Berteloot: And so this year I did I
did some research and noticed that Chinese

American or people from Chinese heritage
have voted for Trump more than last time.

How would you explain that?

Coco Kee: I can share some insights
of the Chinese immigrant group that I

know very well, I interact with most
of the Chinese immigrants originally

from mainland China, some have been
here for decades, while most of them

They have been in this country for
at least 10 years And they work in

financial institutions, technology
companies, law firms, accounting firms,

and they went to, most of them went to
top schools in both the US and China.

This is the group that
we are talking about.

Because I don't interact with people
much outside of this group when

it comes to election discussion.

Okay.

I will refer to this group as the Chinese
group or the group to make it easier.

The first thing first this group,
just like the rest of the country

is polarized those who are opposed
to Trump share the same mainstream.

Dislikes of Trump as a person or their
concerns about his threat to democracy.

But that's not the focus of my discussion.

I want to focus on the second
group, which voted for Trump.

I draw my observations and insight
from WeChat groups that I am part of.

I belong to at least 15 WeChat group.

Alumni group, classmate groups,
interest groups, just to name a few.

I interact with Chinese immigrants
from different political spectrum

from the left middle to the right.

So for the group who voted for
Trump in 2024 election, they

have some nuanced motivations.

Could be different from 2016 and I want
to highlight three of the factors.

The first is the parallels
that they draw between the U.

S.

ideological trends and
China's cultural revolution.

are reminiscent to China's Cultural
Revolution in the 60s and 70s.

China's Cultural Revolution
is class based discrimination

or special treatment of people.

For example, if you were born into
a more privileged background, Then

you will be sent to remote area to
work in farmlands to be re educated,

while those who were born into less
privileged group or background,

they were favored in workplace.

And so that

Stan Berteloot: Silence.

Coco Kee: especially those who
We're born in 70s or earlier.

So that's one group.

And the second group I want to talk
about is those who are already parents.

They have their children still in school.

They grow more and more concerned
about the education system in the U.

S., especially

Stan Berteloot: okay.

Coco Kee: Politically active out of the
fears that their children are facing

the risk of becoming the oppressor.

And also fearful that their children might
be losing the opportunity based on merits.

Their concern is their
children's skin color.

They put their children into an

Stan Berteloot: Okay.

Coco Kee: in the future.

Stan Berteloot: Silence.

Coco Kee: group, of Chinese
immigrants who voted for Trump

Stan Berteloot: silence.

Silence.

Coco Kee: They are frustrated
with the administration's

handling of illegal immigrants.

Stan Berteloot: Silence.

Coco Kee: went through all the
challenges of immigration processes.

It was very painful.

They waited 10 more years to obtain legal
status in this country, and lived with

the fear of losing their legal status
day and night if they lost their job.

They fought through it and believe
that whoever came to this country with

nothing, not much like them, they should
come here legally and they should went

through the legal process as they did.

Everybody should have a fair
competition and respect the process.

These people don't ask for
special treatment in this country.

The only thing they want
is a level playing field.

As soon as they see systematic barriers
to fair competition, they will stand up.

They usually are apolitical.

They are not very interested in politics.

But as soon as they see the risk and
the barriers coming from the horizon,

they have to respond and to take action.

These are the three factors that I
observed and I want to share with you.

Stan Berteloot: So the older generation
you spoke about the war culture, DEI

which was reminiscent of
the cultural revolution.

And then you've got people with children
at school and the discrimination.

Based on their skin color or fear of.

And finally all those that have
made their way through the very

complex immigration process who do
not appreciate illegal immigrant.

Coming to this country and not having
to go through the same process I'm

wondering what will happen because
we heard Trump wants to have

extremely high tariff on China.

So we are going to see a big
competition between the U.

S.

and China.

Do you think there might be
some underlying racist stand

against Asian in general, not
just Chinese, but Asian in the U.

S.

with the arrival of Trump?

Coco Kee: As far as the tariff and
whether Trump's reelection would become

a threat to Asian community in the U.

S.,

It is a very interesting aspect and
first of all, the Chinese immigrant

community have to balance the two aspects.

One is, as a U.

S.

citizen, their children's future in
this country if they see some threat and

barriers there at the same time, how much
threat would Trump's re election and also

his policies will threat the community's
existence and being in this country?

So they always have to balance.

But when they look back, so from some
groups discussion, some Chinese pointed

out that between 2016 and 2020,
there were some what do you call that?

Narratives from Trump against
Chinese, especially the COVID.

He called that a China virus.

But now all the Chinese immigrants
here, or a lot of them, are aware of

what happened and secondly, they also
compare what, compare the policies

that Biden administration put together
and Biden administration's attitude

toward China and also towards the U.

S.

Chinese communities, they
don't see much difference.

They don't see much difference.

Things even sometime at certain
point, we even got worse.

They consider Biden
more a real politician.

He is much better in dealing
with China than Trump, Biden

is doing things that are more.

Destructive or damaging
to China than Trump.

More Chinese including those in mainland
China started to prefer Trump to Biden.

They said we would rather have someone
who is more mercenary, who wanted

to negotiate, who wanted to bargain
with us, versus using some very Fatal

political measures and practices
against China so they prefer Trump.

That is a change in the attitude among
Chinese, including those in mainland

China, which was surprising to me.

Stan Berteloot: I read that you have
discussed Chinese advancements in

electric vehicle and sustainable energy.

I wonder if you think that despite.

Trump's election, the two countries
will be able to continue to

work together, or maybe start
to work together on those areas.

There is obviously a big competition
between the two when it comes,

for example, to electric vehicle,
and there is a big dependency on

Chinese for sustainable energy.

So how do you see that shift happening?

Coco Kee: First thing I would
say that China is way ahead

of Us in ev electric vehicle.

And so that is the question.

So here comes the question.

How, what would be the policy for
the US towards China's EV advantage?

China is exporting

to the U.

S.

market.

So that is something that U.

S.

has to take into consideration what would
be the best for the interests of the U.

S.

market.

And I would say that more Chinese
companies, including some EV battery

manufacturers, are already thinking
about opening a factory in the U.

S.

Because they realize, under Trump
administration, there's Little chance for

them to export freely into this country.

I do see a lot of discussion
about coming to the U.

S.

and to manufacture locally.

Or, they Start to look into the
opportunities in Mexico to see whether

they would be able to manufacture
there and then Export into the US,

but Trump probably will keep that
door closed He has different, he

has policies to address that loop.

Stan Berteloot: That's fascinating.

I heard you mentioned the eco chamber
Americans are in where they look at

their market, they look at their country
and they forget the rest of the world.

Do you think that Americans are well
aware of what's happening in China?

China.

Coco Kee: who, including one of my
bosses, he used to work in China.

He started to write about
China's EV industry.

And he has.

So many followers, people here
in this country are shocked to

learn how advanced China has
been in EV industry, for example.

And recently I went back
to China after five years.

My first time after COVID, it's
five years I haven't been back

and I saw so many EVs on the road.

And charging stations everywhere.

I can't even recognize a lot of
brands running on the street.

It's everywhere, China is way ahead in,
at least in, in EV, in the just past

five years, things changed dramatically.

GM in China recently said that they
had to restructure their operation

maybe there were several, problems.

significant loss out
of this restructuring.

I'm not sure how many Americans
are aware what has happened

or is happening in China.

Stan Berteloot: Interesting.

I want to switch to a cryptocurrency
and so we all noticed that thanks to

Trump being reluctant, the Bitcoin
went up over one 100, 000 and that

all cryptos in the green, why is that?

How would you explain that?

Coco Kee: Trump is going to be the
first president pro crypto since

2009 when Bitcoin came into being.

No president expressed explicitly,
clearly or publicly to

support Bitcoin and crypto.

Trump will be the first one.

The reason, one of the reasons that the
market start to To go up tremendously

in the past, a month or two, or at
least in the past several months in

anticipation of Trump's winning is
because The industry went through a very

difficult and challenging four years
under Biden administration, especially

SEC under Gary Gensler, had been very
tough and harsh to this industry.

I just want to give you
some data point or numbers.

So under Gary Gensler's
SEC, there were over 120

Stan Berteloot: You

Coco Kee: actions against the industry.

In another situation the administration
did not allow banks or discourage banks

to provide custody service to crypto
related Startups and companies and so a

lot of companies were debanked overnight
I just want to give you a simple data

A16z this VC fund they had 30 plus
portfolio companies debanked overnight

So they lost all their banking relations

and so it becomes extremely difficult.

Startups were killed because
of the enforcement actions.

And a lot of them had to wrap up
and move to other jurisdictions,

or just to keep the operation to
the minimum in order to survive and

hope that one day There will be some
change in the regulatory landscape.

So the industry

Stan Berteloot: Okay.

Coco Kee: overregulation,

Europe, from Asia, startup
founders that The U.

S.

is their market now for this
industry, so some of them wanted

to expand their business to the U.

S.

and some they just
wanted to move back to U.

S.

They said we still believe this
is the biggest and the best market

on earth, so they want to end
their life of exile and that's why

Bitcoin and crypto just all went up.

It is very bullish.

Stan Berteloot: Thank you.

So it's a very bullish market
companies are coming back to

the U S now that they feel this
industry is going to be more secure.

Some European countries have
endorsed cryptocurrency.

And then you see this
huge economic power the U.

S.

Who have not.

What is the status of crypto in China?

Coco Kee: Crypto in China is
still banned by the government.

Although citizens are allowed or
legal to own cryptocurrency, exchanges

are not allowed to operate in
China, and Chinese citizens are not

allowed to trade cryptocurrencies.

And it is considered Illegal activity
and also bitcoin mining has been

Pushed out of china because government
is consider that illegal because

it's it has it's related to bitcoin

Stan Berteloot: how do you explain
the fact that government either

legalize it or make it illegal?

What are the threats for government?

I want to understand why
some countries are legalizing

cryptocurrencies while others are
banning it and making it illegal.

What are the motivation
behind those rules?

Coco Kee: I can only speak Or explain
why chinese government Is not friendly

to crypto one of the reasons is China
is a capital controlled country.

They control the capital outflow, they
did do not want people to move their

money outta the country easily, but
crypto is a way for people to move

capital around freely, and that's why
Chinese governments see it as a threat.

Stan Berteloot: That reminds me when
we met early on, you said you were

recommending that people put part
of the saving on crypto just to be

able to move from one country to
another or to, escape something bad

that could happen to any country.

Are you still recommending that?

Coco Kee: It depends on, what I recommend
people, I do not recommend people to put

money in cryptocurrencies or bitcoin.

But I do see examples of how crypto help
people preserve their wealth and also Move

the capital out of the country when they
go through persecution by the government.

That is what I saw real cases
of how crypto helped them.

Stan Berteloot: Let's
talk about AI and crypto.

I've read that you predicted that
AI will be increasingly converging

with blockchain technology.

To create a more decentralized AI system.

Can you explain that?

Coco Kee: I'm not the expert on this area,
but one thing that blockchain will play

a critical role in, is decentralize AI.

The data, because right now all
the data came from, for example,

some big companies like Google,
Microsoft, and those big tech.

They collected a lot of data from
users, but if you want continuous supply

of quality data, you need data from
users, On a daily basis, and you need to

create a way to compensate these people.

Blockchain is a way
that would enable this.

People will share their
data through the blockchain.

And you come up with compensation
scan through the tokenomics to

compensate them to to motivate them,
incentivize them to provide their data.

Cryptography would enable
the privacy of the data.

When you provide data to AI for
training you don't want them to

see all your private information.

So cryptography would
also play a key role.

And another thing that I would
see blockchain play a role in

decentralizing AI is A GPU.

You can.

Put all the GPU on blockchain and
through omics to incentivize people.

So Nvidia provide all
the chips to power ai.

And through the blockchain and its
tokenomics mechanism, you will be

able to allow people to, to use spare
computing power to drive the AI

so that AI would not be controlled
just by one or two big companies.

And so Peter Thiel said
one thing that I really.

Resonate with me, the AI companies
are more, it represents socialism

or totalitarianism because they
control more and more data and power

while blockchain is decentralized
and would try to balance out.

AI's centralization of computing power.

Stan Berteloot: very interesting.

Is it a trend that you've identified where
AI and blockchain are coming together?

Coco Kee: Yes, there are some
very interesting startups.

They put all the spare computing powers
on blockchain and compensate those people

who contribute to the computing power.

I also see even AI agents are now
working on blockchain it is a new trend.

I don't know much, but I'm observing it.

So these are the two things
which are growing very fast.

Stan Berteloot: That's fascinating.

We are getting at the
end of this interview.

Would you recommend someone that
has no clue that cryptocurrency to

start investing in cryptocurrency?

Where should they start?

Coco Kee: I would suggest them to
start with putting some money in ETF.

Right now you have Bitcoin
ETF and Ethereum ETF.

Open an account with, for
example, Fidelity and just

put small amount of money.

In your 401k and just put a little
money to start with and keep it there

Stan Berteloot: okay.

Coco Kee: And hold

Stan Berteloot: long term.

Coco Kee: Yes.

Stan Berteloot: What is America to you?

Coco Kee: America is a land
of freedom and opportunities.

The best on earth.

Stan Berteloot: Do you.

want to add anything to our discussion?

Coco Kee: I enjoyed the conversation.

And it's the first time since I
moved to this country for people to

ask me about what I think of the U.

S.

and talk about election.

I had no idea about politics before
and had no interest in politics until

2016 when Trump was elected president.

It took office and it opened my eye
and to see, to understand what it

means for politics in this country.

I had no idea before.

And so to his credit, a lot
of Chinese also start to pay

attention to the politics, to the
bad, to the best and the worst.

Stan Berteloot: Coco Kee, thank

you so much for your time.

Coco Kee: Thank you,
Stan, for inviting me.

Thank you for listening.

If you want to support the work I do
with Back in America, please leave us

a review on your podcast app and let
your friends know about this podcast.

Our next conversation will be
with Professor Maurice Wallace,

Associate Chair of the English
Department at Rutgers University.

We will talk about James Baldwin,
Black American vernacular, the legacy

of slavery, and other topics related
to the Black experience in America.