Back in America

Good morning Vietnam! Back in America!

Welcome to Back in America, the podcast. You are listening to the second installment of Back in America. In this podcast, I explore unique and amazing American stories from my multicultural perspective. This episode is part of a series on masculinity in America. Here, I speak with Toby Fraser, a social worker and manager at the Lutheran Settlement House in Philadelphia. I met Toby at a workshop on toxic masculinity that he has been running for some time now. During our conversation, we spoke about his own experience working with domestic violence, gender roles, the impact of Trump on American men, and many other topics around what it means to be a man in America.

How much time have you got? Oh, hours and hours! We won't need that much! My role here at Lutheran Settlement House is the manager of community education for our domestic violence department. I've been in the field of doing education, training, workshops, and facilitating groups around how to support survivors of domestic violence, violence prevention, like getting into the root causes of where intimate partner violence and sexual violence stem from. I've been doing work with youth and supporting teens who are being abused. All things training people about survivor support and issues of violence prevention for about 11 years now.

I started from a background in social justice work, mostly in the anti-war and then environmental movements. I'm always thankful to friends with an eye towards how my own privileges as a white man in this country impacted the work that I was doing and how I showed up in movements. So I had a lens of gender already. And then in September of 2008, a friend of mine was raped and murdered. And it was clear when they caught the attacker that Juan, who was someone who was known to the community, and that she had very clearly fought back. He had a lot of injuries on him. So that finding out that piece was really important and impactful for me at the time in trying to wrap my head around what to do next. I've been involved in some planning workshops for women's self-defense and consent and things like that.

And that moment was really, or that time was really when I started to wonder what it means to prevent violence, to not have it happen. And notice that the frame I was bringing to the world was assuming that gender-based violence was always going to be there. And yeah, wanting to think about and dream about a world where that wasn't true. So I was lucky enough to have a friend who worked at the Rape Crisis Center in Tucson, where I was at the time. And they were able to bring me in as a volunteer going into high school to work with some of the youth there. They had a program where we would train the students, a group, a volunteer-based group of students for six weeks in this violence prevention curriculum about gender stereotyping and communication. Skills, things like that. We would train them in the curriculum and also some facilitation skills and then go with them and they would facilitate those workshops for their peers in social studies classes.

So I started out as a volunteer doing that, and I've moved around the country a few places since then and initially went to centers in the Utah that I was at to ask if I could volunteer doing something like that or whatever they wanted me to do until they trusted me enough to support them. They trusted me enough to send me into schools and let me facilitate and do trainings. And then at one of them they said, oh, well, if you want to do that, we have a job. You could apply for the job itself. And so then I started just working in the field for about eight years as a youth educator and then moving to Philly at Lutheran Settlement House. I started as a community educator and about a year later moved up to be the manager for the education team so I get to support our youth educator and community educator now. Right. Okay. So you are paid. You are paid staff, right? You are not a volunteer. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So back to the question. Is there something you're super proud of? Did you see something change?

Let me think. Something that I feel proud of is that we were able to tackle an issue that in some ways is just bystander intervention. How do you say something when you see something going on? What are options there? And we were able to get at a deeper level. So it wasn't just about here are the let us give you a prescription for what to do as though there is a right answer and there's only one of them. But instead to go at an issue like dealing with violence, harm, situations that you're uncomfortable with from a deeper level of what actually gets in the way of speaking up in those moments and what are the ways that you yourself can come back around to being willing and able to step up and do something. And it always feels good when we can find a way to get at the underlying issue that's going on and not just stay at that top level of do X, Y, and Z to address a situation like this. And what are some of the underlying things that gets in the way? Yeah, the underlying things that get in the way for me anyway are feeling like if I say something it won't matter that the world is too far gone or that masculinity and confronting or even talking to let alone challenging other men is always feels like 10 words away from a fist fight.

So there's a lot of fear underneath stepping forward. So I have a voice in my head that when something's going on and I'm wondering or thinking or feeling bad, like, do I say something here? Right. The things that get in the way for me are all those types of okay, okay, going to matter, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, to me, it's really, it's a mystery, you know, what drives men to see something, you know, an event on Facebook and say, yeah, I'm going to go and confront my own belief about masculinity with a bunch of guys. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'll try not to say too much because I can talk for a while about this one. But I think there's a few main things that bring people out. One is from conscious to unconscious, a deep feeling and belief within each of us that the system of gender roles that we have just does not work for us. That the things that I was taught about what it means to be a man, some of them fit, but plenty of them don't. And so any opportunity to have that opened up and have a space where it's okay to share about that and okay and to be in that mess of this is confusing and hard. I've jumped out and I think I hear from people who come to our workshop, but that's a big part of it. I'm just like, I have known that this isn't right. And I didn't know what to do about it. I didn't have a way to even play around with the idea that maybe it's not right. So just providing a space in some ways is why people come out because they've been looking for it. I think another reason that people show up is that folks in their life, typically FEM folks in their life.

So which kind of folks? I didn't get that. I said FEM, like feminine. Okay. FEM folks is a larger category in the world that we're in now that people use sometimes. So yeah, so like female partners, grandparents, family members have definitely pointed our workshops out to men in their life that they would like to either change their behavior or because they themselves see that the men are this particular guy is struggling with what it means to be a man and isn't comfortable with the microaggressions or the over violence that he's seen in the people around him but doesn't know what to do. And it's definitely taken conversations from other people around that person to say, hey, I just saw this workshop on Facebook. That could help you deal with this thing that I see you struggling with. Why don't you go check it out? So there's a belief in ourselves or a feeling in ourselves that the system isn't working. So seeing the people around us that point it out or push us for it. And then I think there's some people that come because they've done something that they don't feel comfortable with. And as a part of whether it was someone asking for accountability or just themselves trying to take responsibility and wrestle with why did they do this thing? Why did they commit this harm or assault someone or abuse someone or even just use their power in ways that they're not comfortable with? And they'll come to a workshop like ours to talk about it. If not overtly, they'll be having a lot of stuff happen on the inside that we don't know about. But we've heard from people before that I'm here because I'm scared I did something or I know I did something to someone and I want to have more language to deal with it.

Okay. Okay. In no case are people referred to you by community work or justice department or stuff like that? Not the justice department for us. There is, and I'd be more than happy to put you in touch with them, an organization here in Philadelphia called Nenergy. Like the word energy with an M in front. They're changing their name hopefully soon. Are you familiar with them? No, no, no, I'm not. Okay. They're almost like the flip side, to put it crudely, Lutheran settlement house, right? We work with domestic violence survivors. They work with abusive partners. Okay. So they get the people who are court mandated or DHS, that's the like child protective services type, mandate people to like if you want your kid back, if you're an abusive partner, you have to go through the Nenergy program. Okay, okay. So that would be, okay.

We get the people like that. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And again, happy to like connect you to them. They're wonderful. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so we don't get folks like that. Okay, okay. So what do you think they took away? You know, and leaving the workshop on Wednesday, I definitely took a lot away. I love the part with the game of card. You know that to me, that was super powerful.

Yeah. What do you think? Because we did a lot and yet we didn't do much. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, talk to me about it. Yeah, took away. My hope is that people took away at some level that while I can get in my own way about intervening, I also have the ability to get myself back from that place of this won't work. So I hope people took away some deeper internal skills and resources for coaching themselves into standing up and saying something. Right.

And another practical level, I hope that the handout that we gave at the end offered out some options. I know that especially with masculinity, that before I started doing this work and learning more about it, it seemed to me like there was only one option, which was to directly confront the person causing the harm in the moment and to always be ready for a physical fight. And when that's the only option, it was really easy to psych myself out. Oh, God, I don't want to fight today. So I'm not going to say anything because that's an almost foregone conclusion. And just giving the options of directly confronted delegate and find someone who's more likely or has a closer relationship to actually talk about talk to them later or delay and wait and talk to them a different time or just distract the person and come up and say something totally out of the blue and off handed just to interrupt the dynamic for a moment. There are different ways that you can intervene. I know for me, having options has what's allowed me to actually step up and do something. So I hope people also took away some practical ideas around options. Okay. All right. Yeah. So let's switch to maybe a broader issue, but still related to masculinity. Do you think that the Trump campaign and then the current presidency has had an impact on how men see their masculinity? I mean, I'm sure having a racist in the White House has definitely impacted masculinity and men in this country. How directly? It's a little confusing for me. But seeing someone who has committed the number of assaults that he has, who is so reasonably uncaring about the violence that's being committed in his name and around him for sure.

I think allows men to buy in and say, actually, it's fine. I don't need to do anything different. Maybe I have a deeper sense in my body that the ways that I'm taught to be a man don't work for me, but I can get enough recognition and power by pretending that it does. And I think he's just a perfect example of someone doing that. Right. So I think it has that type of impact. So we talk a lot about toxic masculinity and some men said, well, it's all bullshit. Being a man is also good. Yeah. So what positive attribute of masculinity do you think men should strive to keep or to foster? Yeah, that's a wonderful question. I think that's why I like the term toxic masculinity so much is because it does provide that difference of saying toxic masculinity instead of just masculinity really gives that sense that there is a part of it or there's a way to do it. That's toxic that causes violence that's harmful, which that means that of course there are ways that it's wonderful and beautiful and great. It gets really messy and tricky to think about what are masculine attributes. Sometimes I'll think about for myself being calm in a crisis or stoic being able to put my emotions to the side and just deal with what's at hand is something that I learned from being socialized as a boy. And that's not just masculine people, right? Moms and parents of all genders are able to do that when something happens to their child, for instance.

Being strong is something that we're told that men are and sure some people who are masculine can exhibit strength in all kinds of ways, but so can people of all genders. So for me the real trick is figuring out what is the masculinity that works for me, which at a deeper level is just what kind of person do I want to be in this body that for me is male. And it's not about, you know, and then for me, however I am in the world, that's what masculinity is. It's not subscribing to some outside of the notion of this is what I have to be. Yes, so if I understand you right, masculinities are attributes which are not gender specific. Yeah, I would be hard pressed to find any attribute that is specific to only one gender. Okay. Yeah, I think there was a beautiful article by Billy Porter, who's an actor, a black man, black gay actor who's on the show Pose, which is popular right now. He dresses in some beautiful ball gowns when he goes to red carpet events. And he has a quote that something about how he's not a trans person, and he's not a drag queen.

He's a man wearing a dress. And because he's a man wearing a dress. That's an act of masculinity. It doesn't have to fit within the stereotypical man box that we were taught it would be. Interesting. Okay. Now maybe a bit more philosophical question. You've been in this job for what 11 years you said. Yeah, different places. Yeah, different places. Definitely a tough job right working with violence, social issues. Do you, how does that job give you a sense of purpose in life? Does it? And if it does, sorry. Did you say a sense of purpose? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

I think I have the best job ever. I get to both do the individual work of supporting survivors and training other people and doing that very direct helping advocacy work for individual survivors. And I get to be a part of a movement to change our entire culture and the way that we perform our gender and what that means for everybody in a way to go upstream from the violence that's happening and to stop it before it even starts and to change the culture of domination and power over and inequality that we have in our society right now. So yeah, this job definitely gives me life, gives me a purpose. And I think I'm not sure what I would do without it. Starting as a volunteer. It's just been such a gift to now get a paycheck for it and not have to have a different job to be able to do what I feel so passionate about. Wow, that's fantastic. That's great to hear. So lucky. That's good. What would you what would you like to tell men reading the story?

I would like to tell men that it's okay to be themselves. That if you're a man who likes some of the stereotypical guy things like sports, for instance, or something like that, go for it. And if you're a guy who also likes doing things that are outside of that norm, also go for that paint your nails and wear glitter and cook and do just what makes you feel comfortable without judging someone else because what makes you comfortable makes them uncomfortable or what makes them comfortable makes you uncomfortable. That we can all do gender in our own way and it'll be all right. We don't have to force each other into the man box. Right. Okay, good. Good. Well, is there anything I didn't ask you that you would like to tell me? I don't think so. You have a really fun question. Thank you so much for your time. Have a good afternoon. We'll be in touch.

Enjoy that.